Dueling Runes / discussion

This is the discussion related to the wiki page Dueling Runes.

Thoughts

maka 1228044223|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I played a couple of games yesterday and some things came up. I've changed some parts of the rules. The haste spell specifically needed to be better defined. I think it should be clear now :)

We did play with the Counter Spell rule, and the spell came up once. It may be too hard to cast… will have to play some more and see.

I've added the Excuse so that when it comes up the discard pile and the draw deck are shuffled into a new draw deck. I did this to reduce the possibility of running out of one or more suits during play.

Overall we did enjoy the game. I like the fact that the spell sequence slowly changes over time, giving a player at a moment in time a specific potential that keeps changing. This way, you usually have time to react to their potential (casting resist heat if they have many suns, etc…).

Changing Spells

maka 1228045013|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Maybe it'd be best to remove the Drain Spell. Place the Amnesia Spell on Wyrms + Leaves and place Counter Spell on Knots + Leaves.

It makes sense because Amnesia does some kind of damage, and counter spell can be cast both on yourself and your opponent. This way you can prevent the opponent to heal himself and you can prevent the opponent from casting amnesia on you.

Of course, Ice Bolt and Fire Ball cannot be countered with this spell as you're damage by the physical effects of it and nor can hit (which is not really a spell but a physical strike). All the other spells can be countered with Counter Spell.

I'll try this next time.

last edited on 1229336620|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by maka + show more

Tried it out

pmagnus 1229145503|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

We tried Dueling Runes tonight. There is some strategy involved in defenses and attacks, but it seemed not to make much difference. For example, I could put up Resist Cold to avoid her 2 damage Ice Bolt— but her wyrm card still gave her the option of hitting me for 1. More subtle spells like amnesia and confusion did have an effect, but it seemed as if the person with more wyrm cards would end up winning regardless.

I don't think more spells would have helped with this problem. The game is already somewhat complex, even with just 12 spells. Being at the mercy of your card draw (or so it seemed) made it feel pretty random, and the complexity didn't translate into a feeling of strategy or control.

Re: Tried it out

pmagnus 1229291867|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

We just played again, and I enjoyed the game more this time. We tried several changes, so I'm not sure what the difference was.

Here was the spell table we used:

	Self (Moons)	Other (Wyrms)	Spell (Knots)
Sun	Resist Cold	Fire Ball	Drain spell
Waves	Resist Heat	Ice Bolt	Spell trap
Leaves	Haste	Amnesia	Invisibility
Nothing	Heal	Confusion	Reorder

Here are the spells that we changed or introduced:

• Resist Heat/Cold - We allowed these to stop the next N points of heat/cold damage, rather than any amount of damage for the next N turns.

• Heal - As an unpowered spell, it always just heals one.

• Drain spell - For each sun powering it, you can discard one spell token in effect. For example, 3 Suns would allow you to reduce the duration of a Haste spell by one and reduce Resist Heat by two— or any other combination.

• Spell trap - The next N times either player casts a spell, they take one damage. (Note that we did not play with the non-spell "Hit", so any card effect would trigger Spell trap damage. This is a way of making your opponent hurt themselves if you think you'll just be playing energy runes for a couple of turns.)

• Reorder - Allows you to change the order of cards in your spell sequence. Does not allow you to activate any additional runes this turn, but lets you keep energy runes for longer. (Needs a more spell-like name. Maybe "Manipulate energy.")

One improvement (I think) was that it wasn't just a race to draw Wyrms. On the one hand, a Wyrm needed energy to actually do damage; so it wasn't guaranteed. On the other hand, Spell trap made it possible to do damage with a Knot.

Maybe the same could be accomplished by using your advanced rules. I haven't tried those yet, but I also worry about the game being too complex. It seems that if the basic spell table were tweaked properly, it would be a challenging enough game. (I know the Dueling Runes was inspired by Waving Hands, but hopefully it can avoid becoming the enormous monstrosity that Waving Hands is.)

Re: Tried it out

maka 1229336518|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Your spell table is certainly interesting. I wanted to concentrate different types of effects with different runes, for the theme, but it's true that wyrms were too important for damage… I'll try your spell table and see how it goes…

I like the change to the resist spells, but I'm not so sure about such an easy heal spell….

last edited on 1229336759|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by maka + show more

Re: Tried it out

pmagnus 1229879030|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I had a random thought yesterday about this game. What if spells were just a 3x4 matrix (as in the Basic game) but there was some way to manipulate which spells appeared in the matrix? So complex spells would require multiple turns to cast, because you'd have to reconfigure the spell matrix so that the spell you need is on it. This would probably require that the matrix be a game board of some kind, which might be more trouble than it's worth.

Re: Tried it out

Raiderjakk 1229919803|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

This probably works against the gaming system (and I'm not familiar with this one at all, so take with a grain of salt), but, this is the Decktet we're talking about, so anything goes…

• How about each spell having a level and dedicating a number of cards to do a desired effect (or maximize/minimize an effect)? For example, maybe a fireball would take 4 Wyrm cards but at least one of them must have a sun on them to cast the spell?
• Maybe not so drastic a measure would be do "lead" with a card that you are going to cast a spell on. For example, to cast a fireball I would need to throw a wyrm or sun card before I cast the actual spell. In effect, your spells would be chained by what you had just cast. It reminds me more of the fencing in the Princess Bride where they are parrying and one move turns into the other.

Just some thoughts. Keep the ideas going!

Re: Tried it out

maka 1229983825|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Hmm… having the spell table change over the course of the game is certainly interesting. But, would it be a shared table? or one for each player?

The former would mean you can benefit your enemy by bringing more powerful spells into play. The latter would add a kind of RPG feel to the game, where you develop your wizard… Sounds interesting…

Re: Tried it out

maka 1229984116|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

"How about each spell having a level and dedicating a number of cards to do a desired effect (or maximize/minimize an effect)? For example, maybe a fireball would take 4 Wyrm cards but at least one of them must have a sun on them to cast the spell?"

I'm not sure I understand… Right now the spell gets more powerful as you add more energy cards…

"Maybe not so drastic a measure would be do "lead" with a card that you are going to cast a spell on. For example, to cast a fireball I would need to throw a wyrm or sun card before I cast the actual spell. In effect, your spells would be chained by what you had just cast. It reminds me more of the fencing in the Princess Bride where they are parrying and one move turns into the other."

But the spells do chain with the energy cards, as all the ones you played before are available for a few future turns… (you do have to play sun cards before you play a wyrm to cast the fireball spell).

What I hadn't done is to use multiple activation runes (except in the variant that uses the three activation runes as counter spell)…

last edited on 1229984148|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by maka + show more

Re: Tried it out

pmagnus 1229996153|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I had been thinking of having a shared spell table, but (as you note) that might give you no incentive to make the powerful spells possible— your opponent would be as likely to cast them as you would be! Separate spell tables is a cool idea.

last edited on 1229996184|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by pmagnus + show more

Made some tables to print on a card

maka 1234316523|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

They could certainly look better :)

I made an empty table, a table with the original spells and one with the ones PD Magnus suggested. I still have to try those… but I'll get around to it…

Edit: The files are available below, on the files section of the page…

last edited on 1234316808|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by maka + show more

Re: Made some tables to print on a card

tsilver33 1234328129|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

The tables look nice. They will definantly be handy for knowing all the spells without a ridiculous amount of remembering. The blank tables will allow people to create their own spells as well. Nice work.

More thoughts

maka 1234396505|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I played some solo games, first using PD Magnus' table and then reverting to the original table. I'd have to play some more games with a real opponent, but I think I like the original spells better. Here are some disconnected thoughts…

• I understand the criticism that wyrms are the only way to damage the opponent and win the game, but I think damaging the opponent should be hard. The luck factor (especially the possible lack of wyrms) has been reduced somewhat by introducing the excuse as a signal to shuffle the discard pile into the deck (I'll add to the rules that players should add the excuse to the deck after shuffling, and around the middle). I think I'm also going to increase the hand size to 5 cards so the game is more about hand management and less about luck of the draw. Also, the game is not just about attacking as quickly as possible. One of the things I like about each activation suit being thematically different is that it promotes the use of a variety of spells, not just damage spells. That said, the new table really doesn't change this too much…

• Stopping the next X damage instead of stopping all damage for the next X turns didn't work for me in practice either. If I know I have to waste energy to penetrate the shield, I'd rather look for another way of doing damage. Problem is, if you don't waste the energy, the protection will never go away… I like the fact that protection is time limited, so you always have to come up with new strategies as the situation changes. Maybe both effects could be simultaneous so first turn you get protection against say 3 damage, second turn against 2, third turn against one and then nothing. It'll certainly make defense harder, but it's worth giving it a try…

• Spelltrap sounded well in theory, but I found myself never wanting to use it. You never know if next turn is going to bring that much needed activation rune, so I never had the incentive to possibly damage myself… Maybe with a bigger hand of cards (one of the changes I'm planning to introduce to the game) it'd be better, as there's more hand management, and more possibilities to fight randomness… but I think this spell will just make the game longer as players probably won't do anything while it is in effect unless they have a clear advantage and can finish off their opponent without dieing.

• I do like the Drain spell from the new table, I'd like to introduce that effect to the game. Sometimes you have an opponent that seems like they're going to be invisible or fast for just too long. In those situations it's really helpful. I have to think how and where…

• I also like the reorder spell although it's not that great for the solo game…

• Heal as an unpowered spell introduces two big changes from the old table. First, it's much easier to cast. Second, it's not very powerful as it allows for max 1 hp to be recovered on one turn (2 if haste is in effect). I'm not sure I like the change. It does seem to keep the balance but:

• I like the Shield spell and how you can (if playing it at the right moment) stop a hit or the dangerous drain (life drain) spell in the original table. I think I'd rather have an easy shield than an easy heal. I also like how the most powerful damaging spell (drain) is so easy to stop, so it's a bit of a gamble. And in this case, switching to hit won't do you any good either…

So basically right now, the changes I think I'll introduce are:

• Increase hand size to 5 cards.
• Instead of playing a card and then remove the oldest one played if there are more than 4 cards on the spell sequence, you discard back to three at the end of each turn. This way, there's no confusion possible from seeing the oldest card that is not going to have an effect, there in your spell sequence. Also, it gives a certain advantage to haste spells, because you get to use one more card that turn too.

And changes I'm thinking about and may add too:

• Using cards as HP. When you are damaged you lose cards (randomly edit: or maybe not… hmmm) from your hand. This limits your options as you lose HP, so it seems like a nice addition. Also, it does away with the dice, which is nice too…
• The Counter Spell: I think it is needed somehow… I think the best way to introduce it is as a special spell that uses an activation rune plus two different activation runes from your spell sequence (just as the text under variants says). This rewards variety in spell casting and leaves space in the spell table. I think i'm going to add it to the standard rules.
• Adding together the "next X damage" and "next X turns" rules. I have to test this first, but I'm pretty positive it will work

Again, thoughts/suggestions/ideas are welcomed… My biggest problem is that there are too many cool effects and too few spaces. The possibility of changing the spell table during the game might be one solution, or it might be needlessly complex… another solution is to have a number of possible spells for each spot on the table at the beginning of the game and players choose spells in turn order, filling the table before starting the game… This one might work, but it will make the game so different depending on the spell combination that I'm not too sure…

last edited on 1234396752|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by maka + show more

Re: More thoughts

tsilver33 1234399848|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I like most of your ideas maka, but one thing I don't think will be fair would be the 'lose cards as you lose hp' rule. Why make the game harder for someone who is already in last place? One other thing, is that during play testing, I think the three card hand limit is fine. Perhaps put one of them as a variant or optional rule, and one in the text.

Also one suggestion. As a variant, when dealing with four or more players, perhaps make note of team play (IE: 2 wizards against 2 wizards, or 3 against 3. or any combination their of.) In this variant perhaps include new spells that work toward your partners. I know some of the current existing ones already allow this, and they would probably work very well. I'd have to test it.

Re: More thoughts

maka 1234401849|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Thanks for the comments. I will test the "cards as hp" mechanic… it's true it might create a runaway leader problem…

About the three cards, I'll think about it :) I may try it with 4 too if 5 is too much… I want to give a bit more control and options to the players, and 3 cards is just too few…

I hadn't even thought about team play. If you try, I'd like to hear how it goes. It seems moon spells should work within the team, not just each player. But introducing new spells is a problem because it requires the elimination of other spells…

BTW, now that I added "Counter Spell" I was thinking, instead of 1 special spell that is activated using three activation runes, I could add two more (depending on which of the runes actually activates the spell). This way I could maybe add magic mirror which is a cool spell :)

Re: More thoughts

tsilver33 1234404118|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Oh, that reminds me. I forgot to mention it before, but when I playtested it, the magic mirror spell was used WHEN the spell was cast at you (Or another player, if you wanted to protect them for one reason or another.). This created a lot of tension (Which was a good thing.), and anytime somebody failed to notice, they got smoked by their own spell. My personal favorite moment was when one of the others tried to cast magic sword against me, failed to notice my two waves, and had it sent right back at him. Two turns later, he also failed to notice our third players two waves. The third player had all his hp, I had 4, and at this point he had 3 left, and just enough to cast heal heavy wounds and poison. He figured he had enough life left to have time to cast poison, so he shot it at player three. Magic Mirror. Now he was losing two hp per turn. XD

That reminds me, do you think you could fix charm so that it can also dis-spell magic sword and magic armor? Both are very powerful spells, and charm would make sense. (Bear in mind, I'm thinking about your first spell list here. I don't even know if you still have any of those three spells.)

Edit: Noticed that you added a table for solo play. Very nice addition!

last edited on 1234404363|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by tsilver33 + show more

Re: More thoughts

maka 1234429135|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Hmm… you're talking about the first table of spells back in the first discussion about the game, right? For now I've switched to this simpler version which works a bit diferently :) In the first draft of the game there was no difference between activation runes and energy runes. It changes the game a lot… :)

Re: More thoughts

maka 1234490920|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Ok. Tonight we played a couple of games and I tried some of the new rules. A bigger hand I think is great. The first game (with the rules as written right now except that I tried the rule to both time limit and damage limit the protection spells) was fun if a bit too long as we both were attacking and healing, so it went back and forth for a while until I managed to win. One of the thoughts I had during the game was that the 4 card limit in the spell sequence is too small. I want to try the game with more (maybe 5 will be enough). I liked mixing the time limit rule for protection spells with the x damage rule, but I want to try it again before deciding.

For our second game we tried the "cards as hp" rule and the game was pretty quick (we didn't even reach the excuse around the middle of the deck). My gf attacked pretty quickly leaving me with less options for recovery. I did manage to heal a bit and counter-attack, but it wasn't enough. I gambled (went for a haste spell instead of healing) and she won. We started with 5 cards each, so that's just 5hp each. Maybe it'd be better to start with a bigger hand so a player is still in the game even after taking some damage.

The other aspect I'm really thinking about is the timing. Sometimes I think the game would be better if I would remove the moons-wyrms-knots casting order and just use the number on the cards. This coupled with a bigger hand gives more options for hand management as you not only have to think about which suits to keep and which to use, but also which cards are faster, which are slower. It also adds more value to the haste spell… I have to test it, because it's also nice to know you will always be able to heal before being attacked, but that also feels like an artificial restriction…

Edit: Ah! I forgot about something we both discussed and it might make it into the game: A possible solution to the problem of a player not getting enough wyrms is to modify the Amnesia spell so that instead of turning around cards in the opponent's spell sequence, you have also the option of just taking them. So, you get a choice of hindering your opponent (a couple of face down energy cards can be pretty bad) or hindering them less but in exchange getting a useful card for yourself. Instead of amnesia, I thought it could be called "Brain Drain" or something similar. If playing by the "cards as hp" rules, this would mean also discarding a card, else you'd gain HP in the process… I think it's a good bargain…

last edited on 1234491313|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by maka + show more

Re: More thoughts

maka 1235834339|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Well, cards as HP is out. It really unbalances the game fast to one side and the game is usually quickly over with the first hitter winning all the time.

I like the modification to the Amnesia spell to counter the problem of a player not gettng enough wyrms.

About the timing change, I'm not that sure… I have to test is more…

Cards as HP

pmagnus 1248542247|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Jorge: I am not sure which cards as HP idea you tried (and rejected). Is it that a player discarded cards from their hand as they took damage?

Here's another possibility: Divide the deck in half at the beginning of the game. Each half-deck is a draw pile for a separate player. When you take damage, discard the top card from your draw pile. First player to exhaust their draw pile loses.

Re: Cards as HP

maka 1248544984|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I tried the first one, but found it limited the options of a player too fast. I actually really like your other idea, and will try to give it a go soon. Did you try it?

Thanks!!

Re: Cards as HP

pmagnus 1248549599|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I haven't tried it yet.

It occurs to me, though, that it makes Haste a kind of suicide. Haste might need to be changed a bit or replaced with a different spell.

last edited on 1248550167|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by pmagnus + show more

Re: Cards as HP

maka 1248634305|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Actually, now that I think about it, I'm not so sure… First, it might make the round too long (too many HPs per player) and the Haste spell, as you pointed out, breaks… Also, the actual gameplay doesn't really change much from the regular rules, so I'm not sure the change is justified…

In principle I did like the idea of your hand of cards being your HPs, because it does limit your options as you get hurt, but in practice, it doesn't work that well… I'd like to find a system more like that one, but without the drawbacks :D

12 HP

maka 1254007422|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Tonight we played a couple of games of Dueling Runes with the basic spell table. The first game was over quickly when thanks to a haste spell and a lucky initial hand full of wyrms I managed to fry my opponent pretty quickly.

Then I thought that the game would be more interesting if it was longer, because you'd need more than a lucky start to finish your opponent, and the possibility of a recovery from initial attacks would be much higher. So we played a second game, this time with 12 HP.

This second game was much more interesting because we both had time to develop different strategies. I tried invisibility and some ice bolts while my gf threw some fire balls at me. It was all pretty balanced but then with 2 hastes in a row, she basically became accelerated for the rest of the game. I tried to heal and resist while launching the occasional ice bolt, but she was healing and throwing fire balls at me, one after the other. Then, with just 1 HP left I managed to make her forget all her runes (a three leaves amnesia spell) and I was hoping to play a big drain spell next, but she played a wyrm that even without any runes was enough to end the game with my defeat.

One thing that I didn't anticipate when writing the rules and happened tonight was that my amnesia spell was triggered before my gf was able to activate another Knot spell, but as I turned that card face down, her activation was canceled. It seemed the most logical thing to do, but I'll add a note in the rules just in case…

Magic Mirror and other small changes

maka 1256292355|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I decided to add a new spell to the basic game: Magic Mirror. It reflects a spell back at the caster. I changed Counter Spell so it's easier to cast (only needs one activation rune + one other activation rune as energy) and Magic Mirror needs all three runes (one as activation, the other two as energy).

I think Magic Mirror is great if you don't have many wyrms in your hand because you can use a wyrm in your Spell Sequence to damage your opponent as long as you have a moon and a knot available. It also makes attacking more risky, so a player having many wyrms doesn't have such a big advantage.

I also decided to simplify Resist Heat and Resist Cold because as they are always cast before any offensive spells, they should be able to stop them. Of course, this means that the current turn when they're played counts as one of the turns of the spell (you have to remove a token at the end of the current turn, unlike in spells like Invisivility or Haste that take effect next turn).

Feedback is welcomed

Re: Magic Mirror and other small changes

pmagnus 1256329943|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I was responding to a thread on BoardgameGeek, but concluded that the discussion probably belongs over here on the wiki.

I guess the only solution is to force players to cast a spell… or maybe make counter spell and magic mirror special spells that aren't declared normally.

If you go the route of requiring a player to cast, then the opponent can still opt to use their Wyrm for a Hit rather than for a Fire Ball. A Hit isn't even a spell, so maybe it even cuts through a Magic Mirror.

You could avoid that problem by requiring players to use their Wyrm for the most powerful spell they could cast. That would create the odd situation (for example) in which you'd be forced to play a big fireball because you have lots of Sun runes at a time when your opponent has Resist Fire up and so will take no damage. I guess that would make Resist Fire more powerful, though.

Re: Magic Mirror and other small changes

maka 1256339428|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I think for now I'm leaning more towards making magic mirror and counter spell "responses" to spells being cast on you. This may solve the problem without having to add more special rules. I want to try all the options before making a decision though…

Forcing a player to cast the most powerful spell removes some of the options a player has, and it doesn't seem logical to force a player to cast a spell that won't have any effect on the target… at least if you have lots of suns and your target has resist fire, you have the option to cast a hit or an ice bolt, even if those would do less damage…

Re: Magic Mirror and other small changes

maka 1256386343|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

As I think more about the changes to Counter Spell and the addition of Magic Mirror, I realize it's more a mess than anything else… :(

I still want to try these changes, but Counter Spell suddenly seems a bit too easy to cast. Also, what's the point of casting a powerful offensive spell if you can see your opponent has a a counterspell or magic mirror ready for use?

So, I'm thinking one solution to the whole problem is that Counter Spell and Magic Mirror are casted from your hand instead of from your spell sequence. This way you're not sure if your opponent will be able to stop your attacks and the player using them is basically hurting his future choices…

Another idea is to force players to choose their spells for the turn secretly (maybe by giving each player a card with the spell table where they put one or two tokens before revealing their card for the turn. The problem is that this adds a new component to the game…

I'll try to give all this options a go soon…

Re: Magic Mirror and other small changes

maka 1256427416|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

We played a couple of hands today. I've made a couple of modifications to the rules.

- Counter Spell and Magic Mirror are cast directly from your hand and at any time during the turn (as a reaction to another wizard casting a spell).

- When players draw cards, they don't draw to replenish their hand, but instead redraw up to 2 cards (never exceeding the maximum 5).

This way, a player that casts Magic Mirror, will be left with a smaller hand next turn. I think this is a nice penalty for such a strong spell…

pmagnus 1256477111|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Does Magic Mirror always require three cards? or can it be played with two cards, provided they have all three of the required runes?

maka 1256479461|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

3 runes, so it may be played with two cards…